View Full Version : Sun style issues

02-20-2005, 06:24 PM
I can't leave my fingers off Sun style and this is more or less a spin-off of Caroline's thread in the "ask Dr. Lam" section, "position/direction of hands".

Question for Paul or somebody familiar with Sun style:

1.Did you notice that cloud hands, not only in Sun style, are 2 figure 8 circles, executed nearly one after another(for lack of a better term). When you just use one hand, you will clearly recognize the circle.

I still have the question but I will pose the question to Li Deyin's daughter, she has a forum as well and I saw Caroline's name. I just wondered why she didn't ask the question to Faye Yip.
2. Cross stance e.g. is scrapped from the competition form, although most of the moves are present. Competition forms need to test the athletic performance of the contestant a bit more.
3.Snake creeps down from traditional Sun is also absent in Sun 73.

Another observation of Sun style cloud hands is that the hands are not turning. Until recently I thought that the position of the little finger and the thumb was unimportant until a recent discussion with the grandmaster. Qi flows into your fingers, so if they twine, then the whole path of qi will twine with the little finger or thumb leading.

In Yang style cloud hands the palm turns from inwards to a stop sign(love Paul's description), then turn back. On the other hand. the body is structured in such a way that there is no circle when you have the palm inwards and you don't do your stop sign(twine qi) to finish the lower half of the circle. Confusing????.....lol....just experiment.

Sun style's palm face outward for the upper half of the circle, then move down with the palm facing downwards and the thumb slightly inwards. No need to do a stop sign to form a natural circle....

Next time I will write down my question for the Q & A with Mr. Sun YOng Tien

02-20-2005, 06:27 PM

I deliberately posted this on this section because I intended something between Q & A and discussion to create a stronger brain storming effect

02-21-2005, 04:19 AM
These are interesting Sun-style questions.

1. Yes, my teacher also showed me the figure 8 in cloud hands. Infact, he corrected me for being too square. Concerning the positioning of the fingers, my theory is that the fingers should point upward, like in san ti and fist underneath elbow, because the qi would be "recirculated instead of projected out of the hand", as Sun Lu Tang put it. I shall consult my teacher on this.

2. The reason why there is no cross step or low stance in Sun-style is because it is HIGH FRAME. If the wushu "elite" thinks the Sun-style 73 routine is incomplete because of lacking these movements they may change it...but they should also change the name from Sun-style to "Pointless kneebusting-frame-style".
For testing athletic ability? Go practice Chen 56.

3. This is an additional question: Define "bumping force" and give us an example.

P.S. What would the url be for that forum you mentioned? My teacher has been a disciple of Li Deyin and Li Tianji.

02-21-2005, 05:33 PM

The url is:

There is a good forum too where Caroline is a regular poster. There is a cross stance in the traditional Sun form which is absent in Sun 73, just view Faye executing the move on her website.

I think there is a misunderstanding. Any competition form incl. Sun style needs to show athleticity of the performer despite the fact that my teachers and myself are both convinced that too much emphasis on the sports element is against the Tao philosophy. Sun 73 does show athletic performance although not as extensive as Chen 56.

Not all Chen forms show this high degree of athletic performance, just look at the first routine of the laojia form, it does contain fa jing and athletic kicks but most of them are figure 8 circles, every move is connected by such smooth circles as a transition. Traditionally, the Chen family starts with this form or even a shorter version of this.

Now back to Sun, although the above-mentioned are present in all styles. AS I said just view Faye performing cross stance in traditional Sun. There is a low stance in traditional Sun style named snake creeps down. This is not as low as other styles and stays within the high, small frame of Sun.

02-22-2005, 03:52 AM
I remember the cross stance now - just after parting the wild horse's mane. Silly me...I do this myself! :)
I think it is inspired by xingyi dragon stance.
I confused it with mandarin duck stance, which, infact, is a cross legged stance.

Aanyway, where would the snake creeping low posture be in the traditional routine? Maybe it has different names? (Sun Shu Rong and Sun Jian Yun taught some names differently, or so I have heard). There is no mentioning of this technique in Sun Lu Tang's Taijiquanxue.

And finally, which link leads to the actual clip?

02-22-2005, 06:05 PM

I think"snake creeps down" Sun style is quite similar to"lowering movement" on Paul's tape. It is executed after a brush knee repetition. I haven't found any special link to this move......

02-23-2005, 09:55 AM

I tend to look at each style within its own characteristics.
I do see the figure 8 but it is reminiscent of the ying-yang circle with deficiency /excess contained with the circle.

The waist should be the axis but I find it pronouncd in Sun similar to baquazhang where waist leading and hands following.

02-23-2005, 09:13 PM
I just came from a discussion with the Chen family that waist is also leading and hands following..........