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kawan
02-28-2005, 11:13 PM
Hi,
I came across this clip of a demo by Yang Jian Hou. It doesn't look like the Yang 108 or Yang 88 style that I've seen.

http://users.pandora.be/taiji/YangJianHou_kort.mpg

BillT
03-01-2005, 05:56 AM
Thank you for the post. It definitely seems to be in the camp of the longer Yang style forms, and conforms to the general pattern of the Yang 88 or 108, but with some striking differences. In particular, his "Wave Hands Like Clouds" looks more like a Bagua Single Palm Change than Yang or Sun "Wave Hands Like Clouds".

I bet some of the others on this forum will know exactly what this is.

I've acquired a few tapes and DVDs, and been startled by the difference between the Yang 108 as done by Yang Jun as opposed to Yang Jwing-Ming (different Yang family), who claims lineage that bypasses Yang Chengfu. I've been told that this reflects a Yang "Large Frame" as opposed to "Small Frame". This clip has elements of each, as well as some totally unfamiliar postures (e.g., "Wave Hands Like Clouds"). -Bill

Marc Heyvaert
03-01-2005, 10:55 AM
Hello,

The clip is actually on my site (although in a hidden corner of it...). It is from a series of VCD's by Wang Dianzhen that I bought from Jarek's site.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/store/storeVCDtjq.html (about 1/3 down the page). Fascinating stuff. I consider using these VCD's to learn the spear form. I have done some basic changquan spear and I was quite good at the cudgel (long time ago), so it is probably feasible for me. Is there anyone else on this forum who does taiji spear? Also if you have comments about the hand form, please post them here.

Marc

stanton
03-01-2005, 01:49 PM
When I first started taijiquan at least 2 of my teachers taught Yang style like that. Apparently the break away from old to new (Chengfu) occurred around this time. There are some Chen and Hao style characteristics, which are actually part of Yang style but no longer taught today.

BillT, to my mind it is one frame but different body type(s) manifest the form differently. Just a differing view>

stanton
03-01-2005, 03:30 PM
I even see Sun style hand movements within the Yang frame of Jianhou. In reality, they are Yang style though not presently seen in present frame.

soraya
03-01-2005, 05:49 PM
I don't believe this is Yang Jian Hou because he died towards the turn of the last century. Anyway this is the old form by Yang Lu Chan. It is one root as Stanton points out, I see rep. parts of "Grasping sparrows tail" which are a series of many movements anyway. The sequence and transition is of course different from any of the today Yang forms.

Many repetitions of ward-off(peng), lu, ji an, partly cloud hands which is also a combination of a series of peng, lu, etc. Reps. of Dan Bian(single whip), "snake..", what looks similar to Sun style Lazily tying Coat does come from the original Yang, omitted in YCF,YZD but handed down in Hao. Sun studied Hao before. Also parry/punch look like Sun style but isn't it better to say Sun looks like this? "White crane flashing wings" and "brush knees"look more like old Chen frame. The whole form shows more of its Chen laojia origins, a few moves are more extended nd open.

I saw somebody practicing this form in the Botanical Garden last year.

kawan
03-01-2005, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Marc Heyvaert
Hello,

The clip is actually on my site (although in a hidden corner of it...). .
Marc

Hi Marc,
That's great :) What does Van "An" naar "Enkele zweep" : correct draaien volgens Yang Zhenduo (15 MB) mean ?

Thanks

soraya
03-01-2005, 07:52 PM
Translation:

From" An" to "Single whip": turn correctly according to Yang Zhen Duo

Yang Zhen Duo teaches turning from "an" or press, the end of "Grasping Sparrows Tail" back to facing south and preparing for Dan Bian(enkele zweep, single whip). Hehehe....hopefully my Dutch is not too shaky

Van=from(in this case)
draaien = turn
rechts=right
enkele zweep=dan bian or single whip

I don't know how 15 MB fits in here? Is it megabyte size of the clip?

elan
03-01-2005, 08:24 PM
Watching this form I notice that the pace was rather quick, in fact considering all the additional movement as compared with the YCF 108 it is very quick. I have done YCF 108 form the as slow as 30 minutes and as fast as 12 minutes, maybe faster. I was wondering what thoughts anyone might have on the speed of the form. I find at either end of the spectrum, that the form is of great benefit. Slower does allow for the breathing to be very slow and very deep while there is something to be said about the flow that is developed at the faster pace. What do you think?
Elan

Shark
03-01-2005, 10:20 PM
agree w/soraya luchan yang's son jian hou yang passed away long before this film could have even been made;i also read somewhere that cloud hands was not part of original yang t'ai chi chuan and was added some time later.
fascinating clip though and nicely performed whoever it is;at first glance looks somewhat like film i've seen of yang zhen duo as mentioned w/some chen thrown in

Marc Heyvaert
03-01-2005, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by soraya
Translation:

From" An" to "Single whip": turn correctly according to Yang Zhen Duo

Yang Zhen Duo teaches turning from "an" or press, the end of "Grasping Sparrows Tail" back to facing south and preparing for Dan Bian(enkele zweep, single whip). Hehehe....hopefully my Dutch is not too shaky



Spot on Soraya:)

The clip isn't there anymore....but it was 15Meg's. It was about 2 min out of a master class by YZD where he shows the transition from an to dan bian. It is about the final correction on the right foot:

In modern taijiquan one pushes the heel out, it used to be turning the point of the foot in (look at Zhen Manqing). But YZD says you should turn the foot immediately into it's correct position, so all the way in wards, about 45° more than what one usually does. It is an interesting clip, I can put it back onsite if you want.

Marc

Marc Heyvaert
03-01-2005, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Shark
fascinating clip though and nicely performed whoever it is


Well it is Wang Dianzhen like I said earlier. I will post a clip of his spear form too if you are interested. Just give me a day or so.

Marc

kawan
03-02-2005, 06:39 AM
Thanks for the translation Soraya and Marc.

Wouldn't turning the foot a further 45 degrees mean turning a total of 135 degrees. Would that cause any injury ?

Currently, my instructor teaches us to turn the foot about 90 degrees and subsequently correct it by kicking the heels out and at the same time turning the waist and extending the palm hand.

Marc Heyvaert
03-02-2005, 07:17 AM
Turning the foot 135°:

Perhaps we should start another tread for this? But a quick answer here:

I was taught to turn the foot 90° and adjust after turning to the customary 45° on the other side by turning the toes inward. In this way there is constant contact between the heel and the ground and your structure remains intact.

The 'competition way' is how you describe it. But this means that on the moment of impact with your left hand, you have very little structural root because when you turn the heel out in effect your structure is supported by the muscles only of your right leg...

YZD teachtes to turn the foot over 135°. In the beginning I found this quite impossible to achieve. But after a while I learned to really distinguish between 'full' and 'empty'. When you turn the right leg has to be 'empty', but more is needed than just shifting the weight to the left leg. Total relaxation of the leg and especially the right kua is needed before you can easily turn the leg all the way in. Now I can turn even moren than the 135° needed.

Marc

Shark
03-02-2005, 07:49 AM
sorry marc and thank you;wasn't sure if you meant Wang was the guy in the video or whether it was someone else filmed by Wang;soraya may have made the same mistake (so much for clarity in discussion forums;elan mentioned speed
and i have seen yang performed at different speeds by different masters;i think one tends to get in one's own comfort zone regarding this;also soraya mentioned that we were looking at the original yang luchan
form....well,we don't know that for sure of course because there is no documentation to back it up

stanton
03-02-2005, 10:22 AM
The form is Jianhou/Luchan frame as opposed to Chengfu frame.
As I understand, taijiquan at turn of century was a combination of fast/slow (moderate?) but with its usage declining, the Beijing 'slow' movement era took over with this being the present manner of practice.

I did not mean to say it was Jianhou himself/in person doing the form.

Shark
03-02-2005, 12:22 PM
not to split too many hairs here,jian hou and banhou had their own takes on luchan's
t'ai chi but there is no reference point to luchan yang's original form exept through his sons,who purportedly made many changes and a few clues;and you're right there were supposed to be faster and slower sequences within that form;
i believe "frame" refers to whether the style is compact or extended,shorter or lower stanced,(correct me if wrong)

stanton
03-02-2005, 02:06 PM
shark,

as i understand it, frame refers to small, medium or large. within that may be implied body type and form expression. it is my view only so we are all right as to how we see what we see.

This is relative (no absolute) in that the Small frame may be similar to Lutang, Medium to Shaohu and Large to Chengfu, which to me looks like body type manifesting as form expression and degree of athleticity. Compact may mirror Sun style while extended may mimic Chengfu or Zhenduo due to body/size requirements.

Stance to me refers to high or low. People starting out should always begin with a 'high' stance, which is slight bending of knees and as they get better, lower the stance according to fitness and health.

You are absolutely right since that is how you see what you see-a good thing for all.