View Full Version : joint extension

05-28-2005, 03:38 AM

I would like to show demonstrations of Chen and Sun masters where it is clearly visible that the extension at the end of a movement belongs to the essential principles and by no means typical to Sun style only.


View various clips by CXW, XL and Wang Xian


It's somewhat small but you will be able to see the extension and rhythm too.

05-28-2005, 06:00 AM
This allowing of the joints to open up is called" fang song". One needs to be "song" all over the whole form, but "fang song" is expressed only at the end of the movement. It gives a feeling of being especially relaxed and sunny, as the life energy allows to pass through the whole body and finally expressed through the limbs and joints.

Chen style has more obvious links to application, as an example the move:" cover with hand, punch with fist". ONe is relaxed, at the end the arm becomes very substantial and hard like iron and steel. HOwever, the inner opening of the joints or fang song still occurs during fa jing. In Sun style this is not very obvious in the form although mentally I have been told that here the arm should be substantial during fa jing, despite extension. Only in application classes, one is urged to deliver force with an arm which should be as substantial as in any other martial art. Even al dente spaghetti is unable to punch properly.

05-29-2005, 10:36 AM
unfortunatly i cant see well in the Sun style joint extension
video too small

05-29-2005, 11:05 PM
dR. Lam's video is a lot clearer, esp. when he demonstrates himself. He plays the form slower than it should be, but i think he does it to make it clear to the viewer. HOw about the other videos about Chen? I couldn't create a direct link, you you have to navigate until you come to the Chen button, click there and then videos

05-30-2005, 02:12 AM
Hi Melanie,

It is very nice for you to provide the video clip for us. I believe that is Jesse Tsou from San Diego area. He is a very knowledgeable practitioner and hosts many Chinese masters at his school including Chen Xiao Wang and Professor Li Deyin who helped design many of the popular forms from Beijing including the 42 competition form.

Although the clip is small it does show many of the Sun characteristics.

I also appreciate your comments from the last thread about using spaghetti to demonstrate the idea of Peng Jing. I will have to borrow that one, it is very good.


05-30-2005, 06:45 AM
Wow!, the clip of Chen Xiaowang was amazing, most especially the Part 3 from Masters Demonstration -- Washington DC. He seems to have tremendous power. Thank you for the link.

05-30-2005, 07:48 AM
I need to make a correction to last nights post.

Jesse Tsou hosts Li Deyin and Cheng Zhong Lei.

CXW is hosted by Bill Helm and the Taoist Sanctuary when he is in the San Diego area. Sorry for the slip, it was late.


05-30-2005, 08:13 AM
Part II by Chenxiaowang is the Xin jia yilu or new frame first routine. Part III xin jia pao choi or new frame 2nd routine. Both are very expressive and extrovert, the xin jia pao choi is extremely difficult, for an athletic person could be understood externally but as I said before, infusing internal energy into external movements is the real challenge here.

Chenxiaowang is a living legend, apart from being a god in Tai Chi, he is one of the few who incorporates the principles for 24 hours of the day, he is caring and humourous. HIs teachings are simple and clear, he is very willing to learn from us as well, esp. medical knowledge. HIs son YIng JUn is a worthy son of his father and resembles him not only physically.

CXW told me that a few years ago, he had been hosted by Jesse Tsou too

05-30-2005, 08:16 AM
Sorry Troyce

I was confused and so was the master. He was hosted by the TAoist SAnctuary and Jesse attended the meeting, possibly he was involved in the organization

05-30-2005, 03:07 PM
in the chen video page its so many video
so i dont know exactly wixh one too looks at.

Also i a a totaly neophyte in the Chen style...

i only know its existe and its seem difficult
so i never tryed Chen style yet

in the Sun style i am trying to understand the joint extension as i am playing Sun style for a few month now

maybe i need more experience to be able to see well

thanks a lots for posting thoses links

05-30-2005, 04:03 PM

Both Bill Helm and Jesse are wonderful individuals.

They both do an incredible job of bringing talent from China to San Diego so that we can learn from the creators or masters of many forms.

We are quite blessed to have them here!


06-10-2005, 08:16 AM

I would like to demonstrate that joint extension/elongation at the end of the movements are by no means typical to just Sun and Chen style. It is an essential principle:


The link is somewhat incomplete and you have to click the button on the left side row: THIRD REP

06-10-2005, 09:31 AM
thats means in the joint extension you need muscle to open your joint

not the muscle type we use to stand or apply force " contracting movement" but only use muscle to extand

i hope i am enought clear
sometime my english is so strange lol

06-10-2005, 09:44 PM

You certainly do need your muscle. But what I mean that instead of using brute native muscle force, you use your intention/will to allow your muscle to elongate and open the joints. It should not be like a broken or dislocated arm, rather allowing the muscles open your joints by the power of (strong) will, to allow internal force to permeate through your joints.

In qin nar techniques they want to compress your joints with various techniques to stop your energy, so you have to relax in order that your mind/will can tell your joints to remain this reserve. Loosening is actually providing a reserve in your joints to keep your energy

06-13-2005, 02:15 PM
yes it is interesting and confuse in same time

if i use brute force it is sure in same time i use my will/mind to do that

it is the same if want to use the mind and less brute force

is it only a matter of force/mind???

I dont know why this topic on joint loosenning i find it difficult to understand clearly yet


06-13-2005, 09:55 PM

I have the impression that you are more confused with words. Brute or native force is primarily relying on mindless muscle force because even brute force is also directed by the mind.

I just suggest practicing for some time and you may find a teacher who knows the skill of push hands. NOt that you are going to learn it yet but he/she will give you the feeling of loosening. Find a practitioner from another style or karate/aikido to give you qin nar. Deflect this not with stiff muscle but relaxed(not like a wet noodle), separate joints in your mind, imagine force inbetween your joints but keep him from straightening or shortening your joints. When you are relaxed you will absorb his force and the elongation of the joints comes by itself

Some"teachers" only can teach you choreography which includes rhythm/stepping of Sun style. My mother and myself never practise stepping warmup, it simply comes by itself. We started to practice and teach TCA I/II/D for 2 years prior to learning Sun style. This helps...........The Sun 73 also contain built-in warmups and cooldowns.