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soraya
06-03-2005, 09:09 AM
AS usual, Shark's thread proceeded from the rhetorical question whether push hands is needed to develop the form and which experience with push hands is made to improve the essential principles in the form into another interesting topic of qin nar.

Qin nar in push hands, free sparring and form is an utmost important technique which has not been discussed yet.

It would be great when the many active participants with their amazing experience and skills would share their experiences with us. Qin nar in the form, in push hands, how they feel or even aikido experience would be very interesting to hear of.

Just a very simple happening in Sydney Chinatown. A crazy man tried to grab my handbag. When I resist with brute force it would have been likely for me to fall down the pretty high steps because he was stronger. Instead I trapped him by pulling slightly to initiate him to pull harder. HIs arms became straight and his joints locked, I gave in and adapted myself to his pulling force while at the same time having my elbow pointing towards his chest. We both fell down the steps but he lost his force because his arm straightened, his force plus mine bounced back against him through my elbow. He lied there with a painful chest but fortunately I could absorb the force and his ribs were not broken.

stanton
06-03-2005, 10:42 AM
soraya,

Needle at sea bottom-Yang style where left middle finger touches right wrist at fossa but one reality is that it mimicks the trapping of a hand grasping right wrist and the left on top of opponents with fingers (right) pointing down to seal the others grasp.

Another application (dian xue) refers to sea bottom point at armpit to stun the opponent.

BillT
06-03-2005, 07:56 PM
Ouch! I hope you weren't hurt in this latest misadventure.

The more I look at applications, the more Qinna, striking methods, kicking and wrestling seem to combine and flow into each other. The standard video of Yang Zhengduo demonstrating his Taijiquan contains a sequence where he illustrates "Grasp the Birds Tail" with Yang Jun. He "wards off" a strike, "rolls back" into a lock on Yang Jun's striking arm, and then transitions into a "press" which sends the younger Yang reeling.

My high school wrestling coach was a national champion in college, and would begin every practice with a reminder to seek, "hand control". In addition to technique-specific drills, we did exercises involving catching cloth bags half-filled with sand, and weight training involving grip strength like winding a weighted rope up on a short wooden rod by twisting it in our hands. Locking was only permitted on pinning combinations, but arm bars were the mainstay of controlling opponents on the mat.

As an adult thrown into many physical altercations, the first order of business has almost always been to get hand control, and turn that into an immobilizing technique to await help. Those little circles with the wrist in Chen style forms can be a means of reversing a grasp on your wrist into a grasp on your adversary's hand, or simultaneously parrying a strike and moving your hand into a controlling position. The trick is then usually one of getting the other to straighten the arm, usually by some push/pull combination like you describe, where the opponent's reaction leads them into disaster. Two things have made it hard for me over the years: people who pull both hands into their chest, trying to elbow their way loose, or "human rubber-band men" who try and give away the locked arm to roll around 270 degrees on top of it in order to strike at you with the opposite. The only cure is practice! I've never had anybody break loose once in position, including some really difficult wrestling opponents. Unskilled street fighters, often sick from drugs and an unhealthy lifestyle, are mainly a risk because of long, unkempt fingernails. I've had my hands and forearms scratched to the point that my son gave me thin Kevlar "Tactical gloves" a couple of years ago. Bill

tthomer
06-03-2005, 10:42 PM
Soraya, Thank you for this thread!

Stanton, what you are describing in Needle to Sea bottom (the first technique) is most similar to an aikido technique I learned as "Cross Hand Grasp 2nd Control Take Down". A most effective technique that can be combined with other techniques once you have the opponent to the ground.

Bill T I agree if you have wrist or shoulder lock, then you have control of the situation (as long as you can maintain the lock and not give it up) but that tricky moment when to take advantage of the situation, now that takes real practice, when not in a class room setting. I think it must take hours of repitition until it becomes 2nd nature. Aikido techniques and Chin na are much more sophisticated than punching or kicking!

I think just as in push hands you must find a good partner to practice Chin na or aikido techniques with. A partner who is highly developed in listening skills and knows just the right amount of pressure to add to apply the technique without damage to the joints. Partners like this are often hard to come by.

One of the main differences I notice between aikido and Chin na is in aikido throwing techniques are so common that in order to train in aikido being a good Uke (attacker, receiving the throw) is just as important as being She-te (defender administering the technique)

The second difference in the training is footwork. Aikido (being derived in part from sword techniques) has many circular movements in the footwork, which makes it a very beautiful art to practice. A lot like dancing!

Both Aikido and Chin na seem to have the yield, neutralize and redirect (or lock) principle, although it happens so quickly and naturally it is hard to see it.

I feel what I am beginning to learn in Chin na is to maintain peng jing force in my joints (wrists especially) at every moment. If I let this go for even a nano second I have lost it all.

Before pushing with talent the caliber of Chen Jun, Chen Bing and Wang Li Jun, I never had this experience.

I could begin to establish a peng path from the ground through my limbs and have a fair amount of peng in my arms and legs, but until I was tested I never realized how important it is to maintain this Peng Jing at all times in every joint in the body.

Pushing hands with Chin na techniques has taken my understanding of "loosening" to a new level. Loosening does not mean really loose. In effect it means more "elongated oppositions" to open the joint yet keep it stabilzed.

Maybe other people can come to this understanding without the game of push hands. I could a little too, but to really get the feeing of it I needed an incoming force trying to take control of my wrists and shoulders that made it suddenly come together for me.

troyce

soraya
06-03-2005, 11:08 PM
Thank you Bill, Stanton and Troyce

Stanton yes, "needle at seabottom" is a simple but very powerful qinna technique. Troyce, it is true that trying to push with a high caliber will remind you to maintain peng jing all the time. My teacher performed it on me all the time and when he is not there I practice with the memory of it(pavlovian solution). But what I meant is that to pursue real competitive push hands like I do now with Chen YIng JUn, I needed to maintain peng jing in my joints all the time.

Troyce
In the August edition 2003 in Paul's newsletter I wrote about peng jing exercises with a non-Tai Chi partner. It is mental work of keeping your joints apart and relaxed and deflect your partner's force with your mind. I think even Chen YIng JUn cannot easily lock my joints unless he shoulder or hip strikes me and even with this I begin to deflect with relaxation and rooting. I felt dizzy but was so strongly rooted that I didn't fall on the ground. The only way is to strike him earlier but he is very strong.

My above experience with the thief was slightly pulling straight and give in, derived from"grasping sparrows tail" with ward off, roll back and push. The elbow is an additional agressive technique from Wing Chun but could be applied in Tai Chi as well.

Another easier and more effective technique is a Chen hand circle as described by Bill When somebody grabs your arm, control it with your left hand so he cannot move, turn your wrist from your dantien until your fingers really point out far beyond the edge of his arm. With and even without inner spiral force this will place the arm in an unnatural anatomical position and will cause pain. There was a guy who grabbed me and I performed it without internal strength just to teach him an ouch lesson

When you train seriously with Chenxiaowang or YIng JUn they will give you a more serious "sample" which can hurt sometimes. CXW said himself that Tai Chi can be painful sometimes, but he is careful not to put off people who are not used to training like that. The GM also said that if you want to learn serious Tai Chi you need to learn to eat bitterness

soraya
06-03-2005, 11:10 PM
ANother qin nar and shuaijao combination is"Buddha's warrior stamping foot" Chen style the first part before stamping. You can practice it as a takedown or just lock to the right

harvey2bicks
06-21-2005, 04:27 AM
You should check out Yang Jwing Ming's books and vids on taiji Qinna, they are very interesting, his shaolin qinna work is also very helpful if you are looking for all the basics and extra drills/qigong.

drlip
06-21-2005, 04:49 AM
I totally agree with the above post and add that the Prof. includes lots of photos and drawings that make perfectly clear how TCC positions lead directly to qin na techniques, as well as the specific points to apply qin na. I have yet to see anything clearer on the subject.

Soraya your thief experience is kind of inspiring, thanks.

Richard Livingston, MD