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BillT
10-25-2004, 10:11 AM
Once before I mentioned having tried to utilize (very unsuccessfully) "Ward Off" and "Roll Back" type approaches against Karate during sparring practice. I had had no Tui Shou training at that time, and had little idea how Yang style Tai Chi was applied. In reading accounts of fights by Tai Chi exponents, it sounds like they essentially "wait out" fighters who throw and withdraw volleys of quick jabs, looking for an opportunity to close and apply some technique which will end the situation. The intermediate to advanced people I've sparred have all had some degree of their own "listening energy", getting their hands or feet back FAST and dodging to avoid leaving an "Empty Door".

How do you deal with this sort of attack? Bill

soraya
10-25-2004, 10:53 AM
To begin with, it depends on how the punch comes in and it's hard for me to do it over the forum. I need to show this face-to-face. The back step after listening is actually applied to upset the opponent's balance, he falls down because of his own force, you can add your own force to it(one of the many strategies) Ward-off is quite weak but has a splitting effect. For this you need more internal energy than your opponent while the former can be done without too much skill. Hope this helps, write more!"grasping sparrow's tail"

The karate backhand maybe deflected with sheering movement with spiral force(sun deflect downwards parry/punch or Chen leisurely tying coat), trying to rise the opponents qi, continue the sheering into poking the throat.

carolinew
10-25-2004, 11:11 AM
I do traditional Yang Style. I have noticed a number of punches and one of the movements is called parry and punch.

Although I do a health form, we do get some of the martial aspects explained, and it is quite easy to see how a move can be used if needed.

I try not to put myself in the position of needing to use the punches, but it is nice to know they are there!

BillT
10-25-2004, 12:27 PM
I, too, try to avoid situations where I get punched. With the people who actually throw punches at me trying to hurt me, it's easy to redirect them and take them down (with the single exception of a professional caliber boxer who once really banged me up before I could get in on him). The experienced karate fighters "fish" with fast jabs, though, keeping the weight on the back foot and watching for sloppy transitions or throwing 3-8 part combinations from the back stance, with the 5th, 7th, or whatever being the one of the series that counts. I suspect Tai Chi experts of simply keeping excellent position to avoid inviting a hard-to-counter barrage, backpedalling and side stepping to avoid the force of the attack until an opportunity occurs. As you say, Soraya, this probably has to be seen and/or felt to be understood. Has anyone seen a demonstration tape illustrating this? Do the "Tai Chi Legacy" tapes or others do this?

In Bagua and Xingyi, there is a corkscrewing motion which shears the attacking blow and simultaneously attacks the aggressor. Is this the same in Tai Chi? Bill

stanton
10-26-2004, 03:16 PM
BillT,

If one has no shuaijiao or qi'na experience then it will be useless.
Tui-shou will be useless since there is only so much 'parrying' or avoidance one can do. Sidestepping,roll back can only work so many time when someone is out to 'pummel' you.

Use of kao (shoulder) or elbow strike (actually a 'shock') well placed can do wonders!

BillT
10-26-2004, 07:43 PM
In a live fight, the way I actually deal with punches is to grapple with the attacker (more often than not, using an external technique derived originally from my wrestling background). Except when training one-steps or bunkai, we don't grapple during sparring in our karate school. Perhaps the biggest piece of my error is neglecting the possibilty that the Tai Chi fighter would promptly close with a takedown and/or locking technique against a boxer? Thanks, Bill

MichaelBlum
10-27-2004, 06:02 AM
This is my first post to these forums. Because my background is in okinawan karate first (18 years) and 5 years yang tai chi I have thought a great deal about this. While ward offs and roll backs won't work well against quick jabs and similar attacks, jabs aren't all that dangerous anyways.

If the attacker commits with a serious punch, kick, or grab , than great we can easily apply or tai chi ward offs, rolls backs and into joint locks and throws.

If they don't, and just "mess around" with jabs and dancing around like a boxer we just close the gap. Deflect their nearest limb and get inside. The only thing most karate people can do then is elbow. As you move inside, apply push (while uprooting) or sinking punch.

Just my thoughts...

elan
10-27-2004, 09:56 AM
Michael,
A jab could break a nose and could just as easily be a finger jab to eyes or throat. I would consider and strike potentially serious, especial when delivered by a trained fighter.
Elan

MichaelBlum
10-27-2004, 10:21 AM
Elan, I agree.
Anytime you "cross hands" with someone there is real danger of injury or even death. The jab I mentioned earlier, certainly could hurt or injure, but also, there are only so many ways it can be done. In karate training we focus on specific attacks and defenses. For attack 'A' , you defends with technique 'B' or 'C''.

In Tai Chi, the thinking seems to be different, less emphasis on the specific attack and more on the "energy" extended toward you.

It almost doesn't matter what the attack it. Nutralize the force, enter, uproot , and if necessary strike, lock or throw.

Talk to you soon
M

Shark
10-27-2004, 11:29 AM
t'ai chi functions"in the moment";there is no specific counter attack or defence; the postures in training are less like fight moves and more like fight "scenarios";the postures train the body to be able to respond to different "situations" instead of specific counter moves.
a t'ai chi attack or defence is based on many variables all of them fleeting and mercurial related to time and space;sometimes even the t'ai chi attacker can only guess at what he or she did,it was just there.like the rain

soraya
10-27-2004, 10:48 PM
Shark has verbalised what i wanted to say. However, for education purposes in class the moves are often shown with counter moves in scenarios as explained by other members on this thread.

Many martial arts teach a series of attacks which is not realistic because you need to be in the moment during a fight. The series or ideas by other members are also applied to hardwire the physical and mental/inner reactions of the practitioner, in case everything become serious. My masters often taught something called"application theory, designed for better understanding and training tool. To train natural reaction to prepare"the moment" are essentail

About jabs, they can be dangerous and one of the methods is to deflect(needs to be mercurial) but several techniques can be trained in class to prepare for this"in the moments" situation. Stalking around the prey like a tiger is"ONE" of the ways and din mak(strikes to vital acupuncture points) ONE of the many ways