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kawan
11-30-2004, 08:21 PM
Hi,
Do the longer forms require more floor space to practice than the simplified 24 forms? Would 10 ft by 10 ft be sufficient ?

Thanks.

Marc Heyvaert
11-30-2004, 11:23 PM
Hi

For the 88-form the space needed is identical to the 24. Even better because for the 24 I tend to start at the front of the patio and end somewhere in the back, with the 88 everything is executed in a narrower coridor.

When space is limited I train postures or the 8-form for which I need approx 2,5mx1,5m (8ftx4ft?)

Marc

Greyphantom
12-01-2004, 05:19 AM
I do Chen style loa jia in about 3x2 metres... I have to shorten a step or two but it fits...

BillT
12-01-2004, 07:09 AM
The Cheng Man'Ching 37 forms set fits into a 5-meter by 2 meter space, and ends exactly where it starts. The 108-position Yang Chengfu form, in the non-traditional variation I learned, ends about 7 meters (at least) at about 10:00 from where it begins. Sometimes I use shorter steps, sometimes longer steps for variety. This makes a big difference. The Yang Dao form fits well in a 7 meter by 2 meter space, while the Yang Jian form does better with 8 meters by 2 meters. Of course, I'm talking about what happens in the parking lot at the school where I study; usually, I have to make the forms fit in a much smaller space. Bill

Marc Heyvaert
12-01-2004, 10:53 AM
Hello,

Has anyone ever tried stepping back instead of stepping forward in movements like 'brush knee twist step', in order to save space?

It goes like this. You step out, say with the left leg, but put it down on the ground, only slightly in front of the right foot, you can easily put all your weight in it and slide the right foot back. It is something I picked up from a Chen style teacher. I use it when I'm in danger of hitting the wall in confined spaces :)

TJQ's own version of moon walking...

Marc

elan
12-01-2004, 12:01 PM
Marc,
What I do if I am tight for space is to pull the front foot back when going from left foot forward to right foot forward on this move which results in no net forward movement. Also, I have use the method you describe for other movements.
Elan

Shark
12-01-2004, 08:18 PM
prisoners are known to be able to practice t'ai chi forms in the confined space of a jail cell so it's possible to get a workout in a very small area;lack of space is accomodated by shorter stances and smaller steps but the weight bearing shifts are the same
(no,i never did time)
i can do the entire 37 step in my bathroom,kicks and all.(i only recommend this in a bathroom that has room enough for dual sinks!)
and make sure your spouse or insignificant other doesn't come in and flush the toilet behind you or you may get distracted.
my next accomplishment will be to walk the bagua circle on top of the toilet seat without falling in.
(sorry,gettin' carried away)

kawan
12-01-2004, 10:45 PM
Thanks everybody for the help :)

kawan
12-01-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Marc Heyvaert

When space is limited I train postures or the 8-form for which I need approx 2,5mx1,5m (8ftx4ft?)

Marc

Hi Marc,
Do you have a list of these 8-forms? How did you go about choosing the 8 postures?

Thanks.

Marc Heyvaert
12-02-2004, 02:10 AM
Hello,

The 8-form was choreographed about 5 years ago and is relatively well known. Quite easy to learn, sometimes called the hotel room form or the shower form -)

It is a completely symmetrical, very technical, ideal for position training. I have documented it fully on my site. Please visit

http://www.sctaiji.org/8/posities8.asp

All text is in Dutch, clips are available in .mpg format.

An older version of my pages with moving gif's is available on
http://www.taiji.be/8/posities8.shtml

The list of the positions in English is:
a. Beginning posture
1. Repulse monkey
2. Brush Knee and Twist Step
3. Wild Horse parts its Mane
4. Cloud Hands
5. Golden Rooster stands on one leg
6. Kick with heel
7. Grasp the Sparrows Tail
8. Cross Hands
b. Closing posture

As you can see it is really 10 postures, so sometimes you will find references to this form as the 10-form too.

Marc

Greyphantom
12-02-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Shark
prisoners are known to be able to practice t'ai chi forms in the confined space of a jail cell so it's possible to get a workout in a very small area;lack of space is accomodated by shorter stances and smaller steps but the weight bearing shifts are the same
(no,i never did time)
i can do the entire 37 step in my bathroom,kicks and all.(i only recommend this in a bathroom that has room enough for dual sinks!)
and make sure your spouse or insignificant other doesn't come in and flush the toilet behind you or you may get distracted.
my next accomplishment will be to walk the bagua circle on top of the toilet seat without falling in.
(sorry,gettin' carried away)

LOL Shark... love the picture that comes to mind in the last comment :D

Melanie
12-02-2004, 04:29 PM
Shark

probably you need a certificate as a life guard rather than ba ghua or taiji. At least you need to swim very well...lol

In a confined space Sun is quite suitable but Chen or Yang can be done the way Marc or Elan suggests. Or walk back to the original spot and then perform. E.g. 24 forms moves to the front and left(parting wild horse, brush knee etc). The flow is in your mind, walking back or to the right, in order to move forward and leftwards doesn't disrupt the continuity.

Practising repetition of single postures for refinement is also good. On his video 24 forms Paul demonstrates the core postures as single movements which can be considered mini workouts

Shark
12-02-2004, 04:38 PM
thanks melanie i'll keep that in mind;btw in a really confined space you may not even have to step all the moves as long as the weight is shifted to the proper leg,you can sort of rock back and forth

kawan
12-03-2004, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by Marc Heyvaert
[B]Hello,

The 8-form was choreographed about 5 years ago and is relatively well known. Quite easy to learn, sometimes called the hotel room form or the shower form -)



Hi Marc,
Thanks.

kawan
12-03-2004, 04:50 AM
Hi,
If you do the Chen or Yang style with small steps so that it takes less space, will it reduce the effectiveness ?

Thanks.

Shark
12-03-2004, 08:54 AM
possibly some ,but if you're not talking about ideal conditions,you could just concentrate on keeping the proper weight in the proper leg.
having enough room to be able to open and close the kua is also a factor

stanton
12-03-2004, 11:34 AM
kawan,

Effectivness will be reduced and moreso if you rely on form only.
Zhanzhuang, silk reeling (chanssujin) and posture holding figure prominently in the whole process, not just form.

Keeping in mind inside practice is only temporary!!

Marc Heyvaert
12-03-2004, 01:59 PM
Hello,

I agree with what you just wrote, stanton. Form training may be fun and it is important too, but there are so many other things that you can and must do. You have to be careful not to fool yourself. Sometimes not having the space to do a full form, say when it is winter, dark and too cold/rainy outside, is used as an excuse not to train at all...

BTW, I have a link that may interest you all. It is not entirely off-topic. Read the story.

http://www.chipellis.com/Writings/Pushed%20to%20the%20limit.pdf

Chip Ellis has also the famous Red Book pictures on his site, nicely laid out in PDF format. A must-have if you are intrested in the historical background of TJQ. Is this a new thread in the making? :)

http://www.chipellis.com/Writings/Red%20Book%20by%20David%20Parker.pdf

Marc

Shark
12-03-2004, 02:50 PM
good point stanton;standing and other forms of moving qigong such as baduanjin or five animal folics can and should be practiced when limited space is the only alternative

kawan
12-04-2004, 05:51 AM
Hi,
OK. So smaller/modified stepping will reduce effectivenes but it is better than not doing at all :)

Shark
12-04-2004, 09:36 AM
you bet,while conditions are far from ideal,prisoners are able to maintain a thin standard of health within prison walls;
i think the standard dim. of a cell is about 13'by 9'

carolinew
12-04-2004, 12:05 PM
I do Traditional Yang Style Long Form. I find I need quite a bit of linear space as I make some of my movements quite large.

If finding space is a problem, my solution was to rearrange furniture, and have moved some out of the room to ensure I have the space I need.

As I train in the largest space we have (our through longe), it also requires quite a lot of planning and negotiation, as others want to watch TV too.

soraya
12-05-2004, 06:11 PM
TCA has a high content of qi gong and martial arts, is totally linear and needs minimal space. It has no kicks however. Sun steps are small and movements more compact and closer to the body anyway. I practise it in narrow space in a figure-hugging cocktail dress.

Caroline
Is it the space or is it the fact that your family doesn't want you to do TC when they watch TV? I don't know how easily you are distracted but I have practiced with people watching TV. Also Manly Beach is not particularly quiet, it is just healthy by the sea. I have to watch skateboarders, pushbikes, hard rock music and thieves. The strong winds have taught me to practise against resistance. The winds are really strong, sometimes i lose balance when kicking high on uneven grounds. Uneven grounds are unforgiving too, they punish you for every mistake you make.

But just recently i discovered that TC has taught me to keep my mind in parking gear(tx Dahlis) and stay alert like a cat sleeping with one eye open. True....i can "sense" a pushbike or skateboarder coming even when i'm focused on my Tai Chi form. Shelley beach head is not particularly spacy and i practise the full range of the form with my sword with people sitting and watching. Sometimes i have to withdraw my sword when people are passing.....

soraya
12-05-2004, 06:37 PM
Agree with stanton et al.

Why do we practice TJ? To improve our jin of course, for health and MA alike. Posture holding and zhan zhuang is a significant part of TJJ. Zhan zhuang has immense depth, it looks so simple however. So when not having enough space, these routines incl chan si gong which is considered a mini form are very useful to improve your overall form. If you would like to compete than you do need enough space.

A serious TC practitioner will go out and find a proper space to practice the form. Master Jan lives in Hamburg and practices outdoors for 365 days of the year, rain and shine. You just need the right clothing. There are areas where it is not as dark and lights are shining from nearby houses. Myself practices with sometimes skiing outfit and special underwear to protect my body. You need to be healthy to do this though.....

Apropos rooting......I know better Chen than Yang. Chen style places high emphasis on rooting techniques. The stepping is quicker but the technique teaches you to shift weight prior to turn or performing any upper body actions.

Dragon6743
12-09-2004, 09:02 AM
I do my personel training at a Japanese garden, located in a local park, year round, and in all sorts of weather conditions. Depending upon how much rain we have had that day, my training space goes from acres to a few square feet. If it is extremely wet, I either shorten my steps, or move to the paved path that surrounds the lake. I try to keep proper attire in my truck to meet any weather conditions. I feel that training in this manner, if done correctly. enhances taijiquan, and touches upon the essense as well.

carolinew
12-09-2004, 02:56 PM
The Japanese Garden sounds wonderfull.

Location and clothing make all the difference to training being good or not.

In the summer, if I can be assuraed of complete privacy, I train in the very least ammount I can, and as long as my clothes are not restricting, I can train in just about anything.

Out door space where practicle and possible is better, or having lots of windowas open if you can.

It is winter here, and has been quite wet, and some mornings are very frosty, so I have to move the dining table out of the way to train.

On the plus side for me is that doing Tai Chi, and needing the space has encoraged me to get tidy and stay tidy!