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Shark
12-03-2004, 10:22 PM
what types of qigong do the individuals of this forum practice to enhance or compliment their daily t'ai chi routine.
stationary type only such as "monk holds the bowl of rice"?
standing post?
other fixed?
Moving qigong such as baduanjin or shaolin qigong?
which is more valuable to you from a health standpoint?
what order do you do them in?
is there any qigong you would consider counterproductive
even harmful?

carolinew
12-04-2004, 12:11 PM
I do the qi gong taught in class. I am not aware that it has a name, but it goes with the tai chi form I do. I do traditional Yang Style Long Form.

stanton
12-04-2004, 02:36 PM
shark,

I do not do qigong to complement taijiquan practice. I tend to stick to the basics? like zhanzhuang (crosses both taijiquan and qigong) to build and maintanin root and stability. Baduanjin is warmup along with liangong.

I treat taijiquan as yangshengong (health enhancing exercise).
Without reverting to qigong (neigong, neidangong, etc) the ones I do know I do it for memory purposes to keep them in mind and as part of teaching.

Hexiangzhuang (Soaring crane) would be the only mehtod I would consider 'dangerous' (counterproductive) in taijiquan practice. I usually caution people to do taijiquan one day and qigong the next so that one may get the best benefit as opposed to mixing and matching the various routines the same day (taijiquan and qigong).

BillT
12-04-2004, 02:59 PM
About one-half hour of every Tai Chi class goes into plain qiqong in the form of circling and practicing weight shifting in various patterns, but there is no name I know for this. About twice weekly I spend a lot of time in San Ti and "flow" exercises out of this posture before Xingyi practices, and I consider circle walking and related loosening exercises I do connected with Bagua a form of Qiqong as well. With that plus my regular workouts, my time is spent. Bill

Shark
12-04-2004, 10:31 PM
interesting stanton;do you think there is an interference w/taiji and qigong or that they are more productive practiced seperately?
bill i would consider circle walking absolutely a form of qigong

stanton
12-04-2004, 11:40 PM
shark,

Depending on how one practices and the energetic of proper practice, there are qualities even within taijiquan that one realizes the effects are different and unique. For example, Chen style takes a lot of energy (mechanically speaking and distinction between high, medium and low stance), breathing tends to be 'higher', oxygen consumption higher with lower stances since more of whole body requirements are required while Sun has the least (good for seniors and similar constituency), Yang is a challenge since the knee/foot 'force' generation is good for building trabecular mass (wolfe's law).

Add the variations of qigong comprising dynamic movement, acupoint hitting, isometric movements, distinction between the Daoist/Buddhist/folk/etc) and the awareness that some systems have the potential to cause adverse experiences, it is better (conservative approach) to do them separately (different days).
WIthin the concept of freedom, people can do them haphazardly but my personal expreiences have taught me to separate them.

Circle walking as in paquazhang is safe enough along with changquan. The caveat is that if one practice a certian time one begins to be aware of certain things within the form.

kawan
12-05-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by stanton

Hexiangzhuang (Soaring crane) would be the only mehtod I would consider 'dangerous' (counterproductive) in taijiquan practice. I usually caution people to do taijiquan one day and qigong the next so that one may get the best benefit as opposed to mixing and matching the various routines the same day (taijiquan and qigong).

Hi Stanton,
Does dangerous mean that it is harmful to the person's health? What signs should one look for to detect whether a particular qigong and Taiji mix is having adverse effect?

Would a gap of about 10hrs to 12 hrs between qigong and tai chi be safe enough to avoid any problems?

Thank.s

stanton
12-05-2004, 10:26 AM
kawan,

Q. Would a gap of about 10hrs to 12 hrs between qigong and tai chi be safe enough to avoid any problems?
A. Yes. I do not want to be specifically absurd but here is a schedule:
a. Taijiquan in AM and Qigong in PM
b. Taijiquan today. Qigong tomorrow
c. Try working on stuff you have problems remembering, work more on these and spend less time on stuff you know.

The effects of physical exercise can last as long as 24 hours and longer after the session depending on the frequency, intensity and duration. Though it may be less in taijiquan (Sun and Wu styles, followed by Yang, then Chen (effects may be longer))). Even though intensity is no tthat important in taijiquan (less important in yangshengong practice), the benefits are still there.

Yes, dangerous to ones health keeping in mind many system are safe and tolerable.
People romanticize qi in qigong practice so best to rely on what are called symptoms like headache, generalized pain in abdomen, abdominal pain specifically, or if these never happened before then look for increase in severity. Symptoms may manifest as cardiovascular or musculoskeletal specifically with periodic gastrointestinal problems. Trying to keep it short here!

In short, a good practice should be relaxing and keep your mind at ease.

Shark
12-05-2004, 10:45 AM
while stanton raises very interesting points as usual, i tend to disagree w/him on this issue;after all t'ai chi is in itself a form of qigong and,dare i say,to a large degree inspired by it.
the prevailing wisdom in fact refers to qigong excercise as the root of t'ai chi chuan.while some masters have expressed concern about the level of health productivity contained in some practices,i fail to see where
practicing the popularly known excercises of qigong within the same time frame as the taichi forms could be considered counterproductive,harmful or limiting in any way.
having said that,it is true that there are some obscure and questionable types of things out there that one might be advised to use caution or steer clear of entirely.

Marc Heyvaert
12-05-2004, 02:24 PM
So much that can be said about this subject..

I'll just give you some of my personal experience.

Overall qi has the tendency to search for equilibrium. Gentle tjq exercise facilitate this and so danger is limited. That is what I believe and experience. But...some tjq exercises are more intense than others, even the form can be done in many different ways, with different focus. This morning I had 2 very intensive classes, lasting for about 3 hours. The day started out ok for me but I was relatively tired, but I came home with a splitting headache. That's also taiji...

My health is not optimal, I have worked for more than 20 years in a very stressful environment and I had to pay the price for this. What I'm conviced of is that TJQ helped me during these years and that without it I could have suffered more serious adverse effects of the stress that I had to endure. I have changed jobs now, the stress is much better now, but I have some trouble kicking some things that I want to get rid of. I have often wondered if I could be helped by intesive qigong, but I want to be careful, because I know that qigong can be very powerful and can be abused.

About 15 years ago I learned a qigong routine (bhuddist origin). The exercise takes about 15 minutes and you get incredible power and energy from it. Do it at 11 P.M. and you can continue working until 3 AM if need be. After some sessions, I was hooked. I did these exercises for about three months and I felt incredibly powerful, afte that it became scary, I stopped, because it was scary sometimes.Since then I do these exercises sometimes for a couple of weeks, never more, but it takes some time to kick the habit. Since then I know that qigong can be incredibly powerful, but I also know that you have to be careful with it. So in my classes I limit things to some reps of Yangstyle positions, some Chen style silk reeling and some breathing exercises, while standing (pole or wuji).

Just wanted to share

Marc

stanton
12-05-2004, 04:41 PM
shark,

my main points were:
1. Most qigong and taijiquan are safe
2. TCA and TCA as instructed are easy enought to learn
3. Dr Lam' s attenion to detail and background has assured that the exercises are safe and tolerable for all.

Tai chi forms may be considered counterproductive if they are erroneously applied to the wrong population, i.e. Chen style for arthritis or diabetes, or for seniors, etc. So as long as the proper instruction is followed and one knows which taijqiaun for which group, then all is well. We are in agreement.

soraya
12-05-2004, 05:30 PM
I love this thread, many inspiring questions and answers. Without Kawan's very good questions e.g. there would not be such a good discussion. Without students instructors will be out of business.

About qi gong I would like to make a few points:

I agree with Shark on Tai chi and qi gong. Tai Chi is also qi gong but i think people are talking about sitting, stationary qi gong, some moving routines which are not considered a martial arts oriented form. I think no qi gong even not the sitting ones are counterproductive when practiced properly with the right teacher. Only when suffering psychiatric and psychological conditions it is said to be careful because stillness can be counterproductive. At least in Germany dance therapists and autogenic training teachers tend to be cautious.

Qi is dynamic and moving, so in stillness like stting, standing, static qi gong it MAY be wrong-tracked. Imbalance of the internal and external MAY occur. Masters call it"letting fire into the devil's reign"(is the trans right?) or qi gong deviation syndrome.

Last but not least I experienced that the "external" schools like Wing Chun and Choy Li fut tend to teach a lot more sitting and static qi gong(zhan zhuang), also the Chen village. Obviously it is needed to create a balance between inner development and fighting elements. It is practised only under guidance of a good teacher. Sil LUm Tao from Wing Chun concentrateds on hand moves but the stance is still. It is intended to cultivate the upper body in the beginning. Later they start with moving forms and kicks.

Zhan zhuang may aggravate certain medical conditions, there are easier Chen forms like 18 laojia Chen Zhonglei and 19 forms Chenxiaowang which they aimed at less fit practitioners. Stances can be modified and slap kicks can be adapted to thigh touching only.