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Marc Heyvaert
12-06-2004, 11:20 PM
Hello

I have no medical knowledge at all, so I wouldn't know about those things in detail. But I was amazed to see qi reduced to a molecule. Makes a difference from electrical processes.

Soraya said :

First of all we need to talk about metabolism. M. is defined as all chemical processes inside the cells of the living body, muscles, bones, parenchymes(organ tissue), durable tissue like brain etc. The processes may include buidling up, maintanance or breaking down of living tissues(all over, not only muscle). Tissue is in fact a group of living cells.


So it is not unlogical that the the circulation of fluids and who know what else plays an important part because these processes kneed feeding and the excess has to be transported away from the place where the chemical processes ran their course. As tjq is very beneficial for this type of circulation it will enhance you qi, right?

I have a link here of an interesting article explaining the importance of tjq for the cardiovascular circulation. It is by Ted Knecht and was influenced by his master who is a Chinese doctor. Feedback on the article is welcome because I have it translated on my site and would like to be warned if it is rubish :)

http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/blood.html

Now on an intuïtive level I think that if your qi circulation is optimal this means that everything that is supposed to circulate in your body is doing this optimally so that all organs are irrigated efficiently, all parts are reached, etc.

But there is more. What about electrics? Do electric charges play a part? Where do they come from?

Perhaps there is also a relation between the former point and the quality of your fascia structure. There are 2 good books out there about fascias structure, both written by rolfing therapists.

The Endless Web by Schulz and The Anatomy Trains: Myofascial Meridians for Manual and Movement Therapies -- by Thomas W. Myers. From the understanding that I have from the book, exercises like tjq (and also yoga) may help keeping people young because they help keeping the myofascial structure young, i.e. well separated, aligned, etc. This may have an effect on the electrics in our body too. Curious to see what you think of that...

And I think there is more. There is also the intention, yi that is supposed to lead the qi. I think that qi is also the phenomenon that occurs when everything 'comes together'. Everybody knows these moments when you do something and you achieve things because averything seems to fit together. These moments tend to be rare, usually there is alsways something that fails. I think that with tjq you can cultivate your qi and yi, meaning that you will have more of these moments, because your health improves -yes, that is important- but especially because you integrate body and mind, get rid of the superfluous, move efficiently and you increase your inner strength (muscles that you don't command consciously but that you have 'trained' to coöperate with your body, organs that function way better than with the average person, stronger tendons, stonger, better aligned myofascia, entc).

So this is it for now.

Marc

soraya
12-08-2004, 07:07 PM
I never said qi was ATP but that it does play a significant role in what i understand of qi. Bioelectricity is well-known with the energy considered qi. It can be particularly felt through acupuncture treatments, occurs in the synapses(nerve endings) through action potentials. Amazing enough that acupoints are very often consistent with dermatomes and synapses.

However, these are cellular procedures which are impossible without ATP. So I stick by my previous comments that ATP is at least one of the cornerstones of the whole qi concept.

I also don't support the claim that ATP is qi(ren qi), let alone tian qi(air and heaven). The theory also says that there is innate qi which is genetic and acquired qi through breathing, healthy food and lifestyle and Qi gong(TJ?). Other theories contradict by saying that all qi is aquired and that innate qi does not exist.

Marc
I didn't have time yet to read the Dutch translation but will do

I also believe that even this is not sufficient but other spiritual and mental aspects which determines the true life of the human body. For educational purposes, qi was simplified as"thought force" at the Wing Chun school. The shifu realizes that this is not everything but since practising is more important he made it understandable for the beginning student

redback79
02-26-2006, 06:23 AM
Some very interesting ideas in this thread, even if it is speculative. From what I have experienced individually, and through application by someone else, it feels like magnetism. also, people seem to always refer to the phenomenon of electricity. but in addition to this people refer to the energy that permeates everything in the universe.
Yang, Jwing-Ming has many hypotheses along these lines in one of the chapters of his book "The Root of Chinese Qigong". unfortunately, the final message is that a lot more research needs to be done in this area.

soraya
02-26-2006, 04:26 PM
I remember dr Yang Jwing Ming outlined the background of quantum physics. There was a group in Germany who researched the relation between qi and quantum physics but I lost contact with them.

BillT
02-27-2006, 02:32 PM
I strongly suspect that "Qi" is a conceptualization or theory based on long observation rather than fact, and may reflect a variety of underlying processes when examined from Western perspectives.

Much of Western medicine is this way too.

For example, medical students are currently taught the "Dopaminergic Blockade Theory" of antipsychotic efficacy. Antipsychotic medications like Haloperidol, Risperidone, Chlorpromazine, and Aripiprazole all have the common effect of blocking the activity of neurons which operate on the basis of dopamine, a common neurotransmitter. Does this mean that dopamine accounts for psychosis? There is no clear answer to this question. Substances which induce psychosis like lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) don't specifically hit dopaminergic receptors. It is quite possible that the dopamine blockers affect psychosis by changing dopamine levels which then upregulate or downregulate other neurotransmitters, perhaps some we have yet to discover. When I first heard of dopamine receptors in a biological psychology class in 1982, there was only one type of dopamine receptor known. Now there are known to be at least six.

Life processes are very complex. Not everything is known. For instance, how is memory stored? What is qi? We are on the way to understanding this, but not there yet.

Bill

stanton
02-27-2006, 04:02 PM
Marc,

I have never seen qi expressed as a molecule. Perhaps a 'process' or way of conceptualizing an unexplainable force-oops back to square 1.
Using Bill's dopamine explanation, just because a molecule may be conceptualized as being missing and we insert a man made one usually does not mean a process is made whole again.