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Shark
01-16-2005, 10:03 AM
while i'm sure most of us here are devout followers of the martial creed of resorting to violent action only as a last resort,besides sparring in a classroom situation w/teacher present,has anyone here actually hit someone using your training? how did it go?
did your training come into play without your awareness?
did you leave yourself open
and were hit unexpectedly?
do you have new respect for either your own training or someone else's?

carolinew
01-16-2005, 12:06 PM
Hi, I work in an area with a violent reputaion, so starting work early, I have to be aware of things. I arrive at work by 6.45 to start at 7am. Although London is busy it is nearly another two hours before rush hour is at ite height!

One morning I was on my way to work and met with a mugger. I'm not sure how I got into the position, but all of a sudden I was aware of the side my hand meeting the mans adams apple. Things like my purse and mobile phone are always hidden. I try to look confident, but not a target

I didn't hang round to make sure he was OK, It was the fastest I got from the underground station to work. Since then I changed my route as work is just round the corner from the bus stop.

My reason for doing tai chi is for health & fitness and not self defence. I do not want to fight people, so where I can I avoid potential risk situations! Tai Chi is an art, so try not to use it for other reasons unless I absolutely HAVE to.

BillT
01-16-2005, 03:58 PM
I've been in many situations where people are trying to physically hurt me, but I've never struck anyone; I have always grappled, redirecting punches, kicks, weapons, etc., until I could get a controlling lock. After these episodes, it has been always possible to recall (once the anxiety of the situation dissipated) exactly where and when I learned the technique used. Training clearly DOES carry over into real life situations, and people who don't know me well who see these episodes often say, "That was some kind of martial art, wasn't it?"

I don't want to embarrass anybody, let alone hurt them with a strike. One hazard of training is that a punch can come out in an unplanned fashion when you don't want to hit; I once watched a colleague get pummelled with a submarine sandwich when his Tae Kwan Do kicked in and he couldn't ethically hit his adversary. He was left essentially disabled by the internal conflict as well as covered with lettuce, tomatos, cheese and salami.

Of course, I've sparred with light contact a good bit, but never hit anyone hard enough that they complained. I've taken some hard accidental and deliberate punches. Bill

soraya
01-16-2005, 06:22 PM
Just to answer your questions:

1. Long ago in my late teens, I pushed a fellow who tried to come to close to my comfort zone. Thinking and focus a center line was my only intent and he fell into a flower pot. Not hurt but shocked, dirty and probably disappointed for not getting a good date

2.Agree with Caroline to hide my valuables

3.I also think my martial and athletic training has given me a good posture which looks confident, but I never made any effort to look that way......

4.Remember my last story about the person trying to steal my Tai Chi sword? I virtually could"smell" his thoughts as I approached him and asked my sword back without any condition. He did not resist....My training seemed to provide me with this qi, self-confidence or poise...however you call it, which made it unnecessary to use violence. Obviously the man was aware that I could hit because he saw me practicing the 2nd routine new frame Chen style, the artillery form.

Marc Heyvaert
01-17-2005, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by carolinew
Hi, I work in an area with a violent reputaion, so starting work early, I have to be aware of things. I arrive at work by 6.45 to start at 7am. Although London is busy it is nearly another two hours before rush hour is at ite height!

This brings me right back to 1986 when I received my first TJQ lessons in Hackney Community Centre. In the spring of 1986 I was fed up with my job as a stockbroker in Brussels and I decided that I needed extra exposure to the financial markets. I got myself a job in the city and I started communting on a weekly basis from Belgium to London. It was a job with long hours but to avoid the London housing problem and because it wasn't a permanent situation I rented a room in St-Albans, a market town about 40 miles nw of London. During the week I still had a lot of free time and so I took up TJQ. I had a lesson every thursday evening from 8 till 10.
I don't know how the situation is now but in 1986 it would have been unwise to travel from Moorgate into Hackney by bus dressed in a pin-striped business suit and with an attaché case. So my thursday evening routine was : office=>St. Albans=>change into trainers and jogging suit=>London Moorgate=>bus to Hackney=>TJQ-classes=>bus back to Moorgate=>tube to St.Pancras=>train to St.Albans. Usually I was home between 12 and 1 at night. During my travels I met all sort of strange people. but I never had a problem, because I tried to fit in and not to draw attention to myself. And I think that is what you have to try to do, blend in with the background and suppress your ego.

I still use the same tactic today. I think that I'm ready to do whatever I have to do when it can't be avoided. That's one of the reasons I'm training for, the martial side of TJQ is very important to me. But I will do whatever it takes to avoid getting into trouble. Even when it involves running away, handing over money, wallet, credit cards whatever. I don't think it is cowardice, because there have been occasions where I saw a crisis developing where other people were involved and my natural reaction was to go near the scene keeping myself ready to intervene. There was such an occasion last week where at the station another commuter was involved in some verbal abuse from someone who had been drinking too much. I found myself getting closer. I was very close to intervening when suddenly the crisis was over and things calmed down.

Marc

Shark
01-17-2005, 10:05 PM
cowardice can only be judged based on how you've handled a situation after it has occured,not ahead of time,as your brain may be sorting out the most appropriate response;it's often been said that if you get into a fight you've already lost because you missed all the steps leading up to it
where it could have been avoided in the first place; sun tzu claimed the greatest victory was to win without fighting;so cross the street go out the back door,there's no shame in that,just don't carry yourself in a way that's going to invite conflict

stanton
01-18-2005, 01:08 PM
Taijiquan, as taught today, is not the road to go for martial training. Better judo, wrestling or some contact activity because you are taught how to interact with the other person.

Violence with present taijiquan practice/training today is an oxymoron!!!

BillT
01-18-2005, 01:29 PM
Every teacher in every type of martial art has their own orientation, whether towards sport, health, combat, etc. "Tai Chi" on the sign over the door in the US most often means "Health First". Over the last few months, however, I've been meeting a number of people who have won push-hands competitions, and train Tai Chi the way you need to in order to counter an attack.

My wife recently took up Sun style Tai Chi at the local Community College. She had no sense from the teacher that it had any combat applications, and was quite startled to see the similarity of "Commencement form" to the "Tiger" xing in Xingyiquan. Now, she will take that knowledge back to her class (hopefully an irate Sun style teacher doesn't show up on my doorstep!). In any case, such techniques are effective and can be drilled exactly as they would be in arts with a more combative reputation currently. Bill

Shark
01-18-2005, 04:41 PM
at it's most basic level taijiquan will certainly give you the edge over the average person just in terms of balance and speed/reaction time;the slow practice of the tjq.form links up the body so that every part moves in concert with everything else;practicing soft helps one to be able to separate each part of the body as if hinged so that no one will be able to get a hold on you;if you strike you're hitting from the foot up;both these elements i just mentioned are martial technique in and of themselves

Melanie
01-18-2005, 05:52 PM
Bill

GM Sun Lu Tang was a significant master of both Xingyi and Ba Gua before he started to learn Tai Chi. So Paul(sorry)'s statement that he just learnt TC for 3 months is actually based on his life-long studies of other internal arts. Applying the principles of martial arts and having internal energy already, of course he has different background than a 2-day-workshop. GM Sun was a GREAT martial artists, so again we do disagree with Sun style being just a big qi gong set, apart from the fact that any martial form is or contains a qi gong set.

GM Sun incorporated a lot of xinyi like San ti or the Tiger in xingyiquan, so your wife's observation is totally correct and factual. I don't know how advanced the class is. The masters we have been working with all advised not to think of punching and kicking too early. Last year we attended a workshop by Mr. Sun YOng Tien.

The form, focus and implied relaxation is more important because thinking of fighting and contact too early may cause tension, a total Tai Chi killer. Internal strength is dependent on yi and focus, so enjoying the form is more important. At the bottom levels, Tai Chi for health and martial arts are exactly the same. I also believe that martial artists have higher benefits than TC for "health" and mention just one martial artist who is not interested in health.

What you mean may be therapy for the diseased and disabled who can't train otherwise. Shark gave an overall view of what is incorporated in both "martial arts" and "health".

harvey2bicks
01-19-2005, 06:33 AM
Only a few months after starting my TJQ training and suprisingly over a weekend where we had a visiting instructor doing some seminars on self defence I had call to use my taiji for the very first time.
I've trained external martial arts for many years prior (muay thai, ju jitsu and boxing) but on this occasiona something very strange happened.
At the time i lived in a small flat above a shop and the entrance was on a busy road, well late that night my girlfriend had arrived and I went to let her into my flat. A very drunk and amazingly rude local thug had decided he wanted to come in and join us. I of course desputed this and after some discussion he decided to take a pop at me (I may add this was at 1 o'clock in the morning and i was quite worse the wear due to my good friend Jack Daniels). This is were everything went funny, due to the fact we had be shown how to use Peng that afternoon the unfortunate thug got penged out the door and politely kicked onto his ass before i slammed the door behind him to run inside and hide and get acquinted with Jack again (boy did i need to aftre that).
I don't know why the TJQ kicked in but it worked a lot better than my external training had when i got into fights before. Go figure. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Shark
01-19-2005, 05:51 PM
taiji training becomes so hardwired that the response is spontaneous and instantaneous and surprising in the fact that it requires little effort