#1  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:15 PM
Gangrou Gangrou is offline
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Chen taiji of wang Xi'an and others

Hi to All,
I'm new here and would like to start with a difficult question,

I would like to discuss the Taiji of the great Grandmasters of Chen Systems Chen Xiaowang Chen Zheng Lei,and especially.

The Taiji of Grandmaster Wang Xi’an is probably too athletic for most people ?

or what do you think is the reason that he has not so many following students abroad ?

maybe one reason is also that he is concentrating on his school and Taiji in China the most. maybe something personal i think he has the most brilliant students, but is it maybe more on a Tournament based system!

I know everyone of the four Tigers is great and most like not to discuss a comparision. but I think it is highly interessting. looking forward for Comments
Greet Gangrou
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2004, 03:49 PM
stanton stanton is offline
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cangrou,

Chen style is difficult for many people so it will follow that not too many people will gravitate towards it. It is best to stick to principle and not to personalities so in this vein for those who take part in Chen style taijiquan, it is a challenge.
People prefer the 'easier' Yang style and others. Just as Teacher X wants to build a good foundation for his students, same for Teacher Y.

Please do not forget that brilliant students are those who apply themselves to the task!
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Old 12-20-2004, 04:53 PM
soraya soraya is offline
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Chenxiaowang, _Zhong Lei % Co

HI Cangrou

Since I don't know the Taiji of GM Wang, I can't comment on it. HOwever, Chen is Chen with all the short form interpretations by individuals like GM CXW, CZL, Prof. Kan etc. The reason as to why a master doesn't have many followers depends a lot on his disciples and their students. These are the people who spread the word and share the art to the rest of the world.

GMs Chen both realize that the practitioner of today has time restraint, despite high dedication. Therefore they created a shortcut derived from the classical Laojia YIlu, the chan si gong(reeling silk). Apart from this GM Chen created the 19 forms, GM CZL the 18 forms aimed to the less fit and sickly individual, or somebody who may not want to put in hard work. A 10 forms is being created for the frail practitioner. GM CXW also created the 38 Forms, starting easy and ending with a few Xin jia yilu and pao choi moves (new frame 1st and 2nd routine)

The new frame Chen style are the more athletic ones and advised not to practice until confident with the easier Chen forms. In Chen village it is recommended to start in a high stance, then lower to middle high, stay here for some time prior to proceeding to a lower stance.

Last but not least I would like to make a point that Chen village is located in a former agricultural area which is gradually proceeding to a tourist attraction. The poor kids from the surrounding country see studying Taiji as part of their life and an opportunity to win a competition and start out a big career. Fitness and martial arts seem to play a great role here. Chen 56, the national competition form, is therefore taught here as well

Nowadays there are a few disciples and students in the western world who would like to introduce Chen style being as beneficial for health as Yang style. Another issue is the fact that the Yang family has been gentrified and stitched up the market for Taiji as a health exercise for the upper middle class and above.
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2004, 08:40 AM
Gangrou Gangrou is offline
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thanks a lot for your answers

@ Stanton,
Iam not sure if you got me right, (or maybe my poor English is the prob.)
You are right with the principles, but the personal thing is important for me too.

but I will not like to disscuss the relationships.

@ sraya

The new frame Chen style are the more athletic ones and advised not to practice until confident with the easier Chen forms.
yes no doubt but they say also that xinjia is more for the younger people,
so if one starts in middle age, should he wait another 10 years. :-)

so, If you dont know GM Wang Xian’s Form Xinjia and laojia even from films,
then we probably can not discuss what is my point.
One of GM Wangs strong point is the explosive power and fast movements.

Imagine, if the Laojia is be done with about 50 fajing movements,
the question is, if this is working on the right principles.

For Xinjia that of course is good, but
the Laojia you think should be more on the quiet side.

Greetings Gangrou
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2004, 02:31 PM
Marc Heyvaert Marc Heyvaert is offline
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Taijiquan practice evolves and doing a lot of 'fa jing' especially with a lot of 'shaking' has become rather popular. Is this good? I don't think so. I'm sure that a lot of great TJQ players like the four tigers can do as much 'fa jin' as they want, but I see a lot of people just imitating this and loosing as much as they could possibly gain.

An interesting quote from Feng Zhiqiang:

MR.FENG: The body moves as a cordinated whole because of Dantian movement. While issuing power (Fa Li) Dantian turns and the whole body power is focused in one point. In this way the power issued can penetrate the bones of the opponent. While issuing power the body should be relaxed, but one should be very conscious about so-called "Shaking Power" (Dou Jin). This power has to be focused and not scattered all over the body. The more advanced one is, the smaller the shaking. When we were learning Taijiquan from Chen Fake shaking the body in Fa Li was the greatest taboo to be avoided.

(This is an excerpt from an article/interview that can be found here:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/ta...interview.html)

I value the opinion of Mr. Feng a lot because he is one of the teachers of my teacher's teacher.

Marc
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:49 PM
soraya soraya is offline
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Chen

Tx Marc for the very interesting link

Sometimes it is difficult for me to verbalise without showing them physically. Laojia yilu is softer on the outer appearance and it is important to practice this first before xin jia. The internal however is the same, xin jia routines contain more sophisticated movements and more outward translation of the internal force. Laojia pao choi contain more fa jing movements than the former.

About physical shaking, if you do too much, you may lose power and focus. During fa jing you need to lead and focus mentally(lack of a better term for yi) your qi from rotating your dantien. Commanded by the waist, it travels in spirals around your body up to your fist. Think about moving your force towards your fist and a real point on the opponent's body. Please don't think about fighting, draw a physical point on the wall and think of moving your qi explosively in a cork screw action to this point and it will reduce your excessive shaking.

Last but no least, don't think of your argument with your spouse and your water bills, cleanse your mind and song(relax) body and joints. Remain in high spirits and enjoy(Shen), don't overfocus on qi, shen, jing or whatsoever

Gangrou
Chenxiaowang has created the 38 Forms starting off with easy laojia moves and ending with explosive xin jia yilu and pao choi. Actually he advised for a beginner to start with chan si gong(reeling silk) simultaneously with either laojia, 19 or 38 forms. Also today it depends on achievements and not on how many years you have been practicing.

Nowadays it doesn't need 10 years of laojia. ONly in Chen village the Chen kids have to do 10 years of laojia then the xin jia comes very quick. Any other student who is not an indoor student can only study laojia. Westerners pay more money and treated like indoor students.
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:27 PM
soraya soraya is offline
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38 forms

Just to inform that GM Wang's 38 forms is different from GM Chenxiaowang's 38 forms.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:35 AM
Gangrou Gangrou is offline
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thank you for many good advises.

I think it is not making sense to further describe my thoughts.

it is not the question of which Form should be concentrated or learned first.
I do martial art since 20 years and Chen Taiji since 6 Years.

And for Example, Master Chen Yu (son of Chen Zhaokui) has no Laojia / Xinjia
but is doing his fathers Form yilu and Erlu.

for a long time they learned Laojia in Chenvillage,
and from the 70’s on a few hundreds started learning xinjia,

what I am trying to discuss is, some of the Grandmasters have separate the
character of this two forms / systems,
and some do in Laojia still as many Xinjia movements.
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:05 AM
stanton stanton is offline
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cangrou,

Everyone who does any style does it differently and moreso if they studied from the same teacher. I may say that the mechanics of hte form and martial application (if that is what one is interested in) are more imprtant than just form alone.

Laojia is xinjia but with perhaps more or less movements depending on usage. Laojia may have had 1 movement but xinjia increased to 3-4 to accentualte or make more 'visual' the application or steps. I do the sanqiba (38) form of Xiaowang, which has both laojia and xinjia elements.
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:14 PM
soraya soraya is offline
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different characters

In fact Chen style remains Chen style. E.g. in xin jia there is a move"white gorilla offering fruit". IN this move the circles are visible and the inner spiral force is translated into outer movements, one or two.

I have seen GM Chen doing laojia and xin jia separately, but also doing the same form with different interpretations e.g. laojia with some xin jia movements and vice versa. He only separates for educational purposes. On the last seminar he demonstrated "pure" xin jia with many, many hand circles and more obviously visible fa jing moves.

But I have also seen him doing laojia yilu very softly, decreasing the amount of steps, turns, twists and circles, decreased number of deceptions like moving down prior to up, left prior to right etc. Nevertheless, on the internal the amount of cork screw actions remains the same.
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Old 12-23-2004, 02:16 AM
Gangrou Gangrou is offline
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thank you,
both of you are right with your statements.

and I think also, that it makes no sense to judge the demonstration
of a promotion Video, at least one has to see how the Master teaches
the students, or how he works on the regular basis.
I have not found a teacher jet, so like to make a view of the attainable systems.

I hope it is not disrespectful to discuss these things on Master Lam’s board.
I like his site and articles a lot, its very helpful.

Thank you very much
i whish All of you a very happy Christmas
and all the best for the New Year

Gangrou
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Old 12-27-2004, 01:41 PM
wujimon wujimon is offline
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Just found the thread.. rather interesting topic. I've always found the differences between the "big 4" rather interesting.

Of the video clips I've seen of Wang Xi'an, I didn't notice that his form was more athletic than the others. His fajing is more "short", more similar to that of Zhu Tian Cai than of CXW, CZL, IMO.

As for his popularity, if I'm not mistaken, GM Wang is quite popular in Japan. I think each of them have their areas of concentration and he can only become more popular as they travel to new areas.

I'd agree with the statements regarding fajing. Personally, I'm more partial to CXW's fajing and then CZL for his more "whip like" nature.

In regards to Chen Yu, I agree that his form is different. However as a side note, there is also talk that there's really no such thing as laojia/xinjia but more da jia/ xiao jia (big frame, small frame). In any case, I also like Chen Yu's form too..

If you're looking for someone to follow, I'd say pick the one that's more accessible and just practice .

good luck.
w.
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:09 PM
Gangrou Gangrou is offline
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Hi Wujimon, thanks for comment

I agree with your last sentence. but because a lot of effort is needed, so I will make up my mind clear.
But ofcourse i think the personal matter concernes a lot.

If you know the Clips of GM Wang which are availlable on the Internet, I would strongly recommend a more older video / VCD
where he and his studients demonstrate all the forms.

and it is one routine which has confused me a lot on it.

it is the last one, where he himself performs a Form
which si namend Laojia on the Video, he is doing first part,
than I think he is mixing a bit and doing other forms pices on it.

so maybe that was confusing me.
take care gangrou
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2004, 01:51 AM
Marc Heyvaert Marc Heyvaert is offline
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Hello,

Perhaps there has been some evolution in the way the forms are done.

I have noticed the same sort of thing in modern Yang style forms. There are some things that were considered correct in the eighties that nobody in the PRC seems to be doing anymore.

One example is the way BKTS is done. If you look at older instructional videos (e.g. Li Deyin), the brushing of the knee is taken quite literally. So the hand goes down rather quickly in a protective movement around one's own knee. Over the years there has been an evolution, possibly under influence of the traditionalists, and nowadays the brushing hand stays more level with the waist until the turning movement is finished only to be lowered and pushed down in sync with the stretching and extending of the movement. You can clearly see this in all the recent versions (e.g. Si Tan Chen).

I think that it is wrong to look upon tjq as something static. There is a great deal of respect and reverence for the past and the masters of 19th and the early 20th century, but with all the people doing tjq nowadays, a lot of them full time, new insights are developing. Forms will continue to evolve.

Marc
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